Monday, June 13, 2011

Just Mucking Fugly

Wow, what a brutal day this has been. It now appears certain that silver will not reach 42-43 before first notice day. That pick is going to end up costing The Turd a lot of money. I'm very sorry if it has negatively impacted your account, as well. The obliteration of Friday and today has caught me by complete surprise. Just another reason to leave the day-to-day trading of these "markets" to us poor, addicted gambling fools and, instead, confine yourself to the regular, slow accumulation of physical metal.

To that end, the new site is almost ready. Technically, it's finished but I still have to learn how to do my postings as well as craft some introductory messages. I may still get all this done by later today but I don't know if I'll make it. I'll keep you posted.

Let's start with gold. It has broken through the primary trendline which dates all the way back to Turd's Bottom in January. A couple of things:
1) It has done this before and recovered so its not the end of the trend...yet...though it might be.
2) The trend was/is going to end soon, anyway.
As stated in the "roadmap" and often since, gold was seasonally due to peak in June and then trade sideways through the summer. I strongly suspect that these "doldrums" have now begun and that gold will be rangebound, roughly between 1460 and 1550 until mid to late August.

Silver looks awful. Take a look at this dreary, ugly 15-minute chart:
And having broken down through the pennant we've been watching since last week, silver looks set to drop to at least 34, if not 33. Yuck.
Registered silver at The Comex is at only 28MM ounces, enough to physically settle just 5600 contracts but who cares? It doesn't seem to matter right now. All that matters is this mistaken belief that QE is ending for good in 17 days. Whatever.
Silver, too, now looks rangebound for the summer, bounded by maybe 31-32 on the downside and 37-38 on the upside.

Crude stinks, too, but it still has some support left. Take a look at this chart and be sure to note the quick, snap-back rallies that have occurred from the $96 level.
If our esteemed and highly experienced Chief Executive gets his way and crude moves lower, look for very strong support to emerge between $90 and $92.

Thanks again for hanging in there and patiently awaiting the new site. As I publish this, my next call is to one of the developers so she can teach my how to write these posts on the site.

Again, I'm very sorry that silver failed to make $42. It's a real drag but we live to fight another day. For now, preserve capital and maybe take the summer off from trading. Get ready for happier times in the fall. TF


  1. Great calls, website start date and all! You're psychic.

  2. Don't sweat it, Turd ... Your batting average is still Hall of Fame material.

    You were very clear about the fact that you're not a psychic. Anybody who's looking for clairvoyant stock tips is going to be disappointed no matter where they go.

    Looking forward to the new site!

  3. Thanks for all the work TF, you're the man. Can't wait for the new site!!

  4. MARAdona + Turd = true love.

    We can all see it. He's been waiting patiently for hours to express his tender feelings at the top of the list.

  5. The mistakes are mine, and mine alone. Thank you for the effort you put in.

    I'd love to hear your thoughts on the debt ceiling debacle and what you think the impacts on PMs will be the instant its lifted.

    Will there be a tell somewhere when that decision will be made?

  6. @Jimmy:

    <a href="”>Kaboom</a>

    Part one:

    What this means, simplified:

    Many people cannot afford to make their mortgage payments. Whether from predatory loan, no doc loan, outright fraud, loss of a job, or what not, the underlying issue matters not. What does matter, is that one who cannot pay their mortgage payment on time, is supposed to lose the home to the lender through foreclosure. It is called different things in every state, but the basic process is the same.

    In the old days, it worked like this:

    Buyer: one who put up down payment, got loan from bank, took title to real property.

    Bank: one who loaned money to buyer, with the real property pledged as collateral for the loan. The bank held a lien against the property, and if the buyer did not pay, the bank was in first position to take title.

    Default: buyer did not make payments as agreed.

    Foreclosure: high bidder at public, courthouse auction takes title to real property. If property was worth more than lien, defaulting buyer would just sell it, and that would be it. If property was worth less, then bank would simply bid the amount of the first lien, and the bank would take title. If it was close, then their would be bidders at the auction. The winning bidder would take title. Any proceeds from the auction would go to the lienholders, starting with the first lien holder, then on down the line. The buyer would get clean title.

  7. sometimes i think i should just cash out ira and head for the bunny ranch for a few weeks months till its all gone(whats left) then ill take a nice long walk into the desert

  8. OK I've been reading this blog for a long time, and enjoy doing so. But there is just one thing I don't understand, and it's bothered me enough to finally make my first post here and ask you:

    What do you guys have against small and affordable Italian automobiles?

  9. Titus- Have you ever seen the movie "Say Anything" with John Cusack? He has a friend who is a chick that got dumped by a guy named Joe, and she spends the whole movie writing horrid songs about how terrible Joe is. I used to think this was the epitome of pathetic hate-crush. Until MARAdona.

  10. Cali. Lawyer. With you so far. :D

  11. Turd

    Thanks again for your sharing your insights with us. No one is perfect especially when the are battling Constant market manipulations. I've made a bunch and lost less than I would have if I didn't read your site.


  12. your mining shares are belong to me.

  13. TF - still two weeks to go. Have you let go your positions from the $42-43 outlook or hanging in for either a) the target which admittedly seems unlikely or b) a surge to $37-38?

    Again - thanks for the integrity

  14. How could you be surprised when Armstrong called it and nailed it?

  15. Armstrong without doubt called it, but the question is whether the EMC model predicts a daily bottom or the start of consolidation downwards. Gold at 1515 is certainly not making a low, but silver/base metals seem to be doing just that while bonds are near their highs. Price action will tell us soon enough unless ole marty would like to give us some price projections.

  16. in all serious i don't see how the 'risk trades' can go much lower w/out flushing stops out to dow 11,500. financials are up big today.
    it was no coincidence liesman had a surprise announcement @ 3 pm friday to boost financials.
    i'm long miners.

  17. Well Armstrong's June 13/14 call is looking good. A couple more days and we'll see if this is a turning point. My problem with his calls, is he's calling for $5000 Gold in like 2016, I'm thinking 2012.

  18. @Jimmy:

    Part Two.

    This all changed with the advent of the MBS.

    With the onset of subprime loans, and the rest of the toxic crap, and the advent of mortgage backed securities, etc., the whole lending stream changed, dramatically.

    Banks no longer loaned their own money. Instead, investors put up the money, and the banks became mortgage originators, earned a fee for such, and then became servicers for the loan, meaning that the banks collected fees for taking the monthly payments from the borrowers, then passing the balance to the respective investors (trusts).

    The paper trail became complicated. Instead of a simple deed of trust, and a mortgage, there came to be a whole series of transactions. There was the original deed of trust, with the original mortgage, but then the paper would be assigned and transferred from the originating bank, to the trust. In concept, that was just fine. But, in practice, there was a snag.

  19. I found this comment on SGS's blog, and I don't really understand it that well. Does it mean that the parabolic rise in silver in April was not speculative buying, but commercial short covering, and, therefore, there's no chance of true speculative buying getting the price near 48 again for a long, long time?


    I can't stomach watching these MANIPULATED markets anymore. To hear good gold and silver analysts talking about the big TAKE DOWN in silver as a P-R-O-P-E-R response to a parabolic move stirs up even more acid in my gut.

What took place the very week silver hit $49, was a huge orchestrated takedown by the Comex, Exchanges, Bullion Banks and US Govt. 

When I hear that it was SPECULATIVE MONEY that made the price of silver hit $50 and it was due to the P-R-O-P-E-R requirements of the Comex to raise margins to COOL DOWN the speculatve frenzy....still more bile makes it way up my esophagus.


April 5th price of silver = $39.30
April 5th COT REPORT = 89,827 Commercial Shorts

April 25th price of silver = $46.86
April 26th COT REPORT = 78,297 Commercial Shorts

Difference in Silver Price April 5th to 26th = +$7.56
Difference in Commercial Shorts = -11,530


April 28th high of silver = $48.42
May 3rd Price of silver = $41.50
May 3rd COT Report = 73,202 Commercial Shorts

Difference in Price April 26- May 3 = -$6.92
Difference in Commercial Shorts = -5,094


Here we can see that between April 5th and April 26th the price of silver from low to high was an increase of $7.56. Normally in the past as the price of silver increased, the commercial shorts increased their positions. Here we find the exact opposite....they liquidated 11,530 contracts on a $7.56 increase!!

Now...the following week as the margin hikes began as silver hit a high of $48.42 and closed at $41.50 on May 3rd....the end of the Cot Report, the Commercials only liquidated 5,094 contracts.

What took place was a HUGE SHORT COVERING SQUEEZE during the month of April as the big commercials actually liquidated shorts as the price moved higher. It was not SPECULATIVE BUYING...but COMMERCIAL SHORT COVERING...which means they were buying back their postions to close out their shorts.

Just think about that for a minute....11,530 contracts liquidated on a $7.56 price move higher, and 5,094 contracts liquidated on a $6.92 move lower. The Commercials liquidated less than half of the number of shorts as the price moved lower than they did as the price moved higher.

  20. @Jimmy:

    Part Three.

    The legal issue is that to be valid, the promissory note must stay with the deed of trust. If they were separated, then legally, it became a problem as to who had the right to foreclose if the borrower defaulted.

    It is just like fractional reserve banking. The servicing bank, who created the loan and was supposed to assign the note to the trust (investors), what if the bank never formally assigned the note to the trust? In other words, if the bank assigned the promissory note, but did not simultaneously assign the deed with it, then the note is invalid to support a foreclosure.

    So, if the note is separated from the deed, then, what happens if the borrower defaults? Who then, legally, has the right to foreclose? Answer is: whoever has possession of the note.

    Basically, if the note was never properly assigned, or if it was assigned without the deed, then the borrower can challenge standing (standing is legally the right to take action. If someone lacks standing, legally, they have no right to take action.)

    So . . .

    The big banks all conjured up a scheme to issue loans, and securitize them, electronically. This was done to save time, and money. They did this to streamline the process, and to avoid the hefty recording fees each and every time a deed or note changed hands. The banks all figured that having an electronic transfer would satisfy the transfer requirements, but alas, the simple recording rules and the UCC did not allow for electronic transfer of the deeds and notes.

    Think about this: how can a potential buyer confirm clear title if there is no actual, physical paper, which has been recorded at the land office? It is impossible. There would never be clear title, since one would have to go outside of the recording office to check for clear title.

    Hence, the rules required (and still do) actual, physical recording. This means taking the actual physical document, such as the deed, or mortgage, or assignment, down to the land office or county recorder, paying the fees, and voila, there is an actual record of the buyer, seller, and lien holder for the whole world to see.

    In New York, the court, unanimously, found that MERS (Mortgage Electronic Recording System, which was the legal entity that the banks created) lacks standing to foreclose. This is because there was not proper physical transfer of paperwork, or actual physical recording of the assignment documents). Since MERS lacks standing to foreclose, then anyone that MERS assigned its rights to also has no standing to foreclose.

    MERS did 60% of the residential real estate market!!!! This is a MAJOR problem for the banks. Millions of homes, trillions in value. All now suspect.

    Is this the Black Swan?

  21. repost from previous thread. just want to make sure everyone has a chance to read it. thnx


    For all of you that did not hear Santa's latest interview on KWN, go give it a listen.

    He offers a strategy mining managements can take to stop all the manipulative WS short selling of their shares. It is a "must listen" interview.

    Stockholders need to agitate to get CEOs/BoDs to adopt his strategy.

  22. Turd, keep up the good charting! No need to feel sorry nobody knows the course of things to come.

    I have been on the sideline since the biggest dip. I hope to be buying the biggest summer dip to be ready for the end of summer.

  23. No worries Turd, nobody's correct 100% of the time. I wouldn't have even dabbled in the paper markets if it wasn't for finding your blog. I didn't make anything over the past few weeks but hey, i didn't loose anything either.

    I'm a noob at this so the past few weeks have been a huge learning curve for me and the learning experience from you and from other posters on this blog is probably more valuable to me right now than any money i could have potentially made.

  24. California Lawyer...

    If we went through foreclosure a couple of years ago and had to pay a large fee just to save our house and begin payments on it again, is it still possible to request our Note that goes along with the Deed? Possible to still take action or investigate?

  25. This comment has been removed by the author.

  26. One thing that is underlying any price action in silver is the significant net position increase of the commercials (per the COT).

    The net position is higher than at any point over the last two years. (Or very close to two years ... my charts don't go back that far.)

    Santa included a post about this in his "Jim's Mailbox" section:

    This is very bullish for silver. But not necessarily a good timing indicator of when to go long. Lots of strong hands moving in while the weak hands head for "safety".

  27. Please explain again what Martin Armstrong called?

  28. Great news, wife, our house is FREE! That's right, we have a MERS assigned certificate and we're going to stop paying it. Come and get us. Hah!

  29. I took a motley pile of gold, silver, and FRN's that I had no love for and went to my fav coin shop today and swapped for an Austrian 100 Corona. That's .9802 troy oz of gold to you. Pretty nice. Will never replace a US $20 Double Eagle. Will never even replace a Mex 50 Peso either. But it's not bad, and it's something that can sit in the box and not annoy me.

    So, bottom line, on the physical side I was a net buyer today.

    Ginger, shut up! :D

  30. Again, thanks for your technical analysis, Turd. As for breaking through support, it is good news for anyone looking to convert cash to Ag.

    But I do think that we are likely to see a much broader selloff in all the markets, and that ol' tired dollar making a last push higher (I don't know how high) as all kinds of bad debt starts collapsing all over the planet. Along about August, or maybe toward the end of the year, I'd expect QE3 to get going and that will slow and reverse the strong dollar trend. They'll want to do something to goose the economy for 2012, it's an election year, you know...

  31. Forget about the MARAdonas... Turd most of us need your technical insights.
    Parting from there and other articles, et al. We can then make our own investment decisions, whether as day traders, swing traders, etc.

    I -as you- trade to make more physical

    Thanks for the time and effort you put on this

  32. Calif Lawyer.

    Wow. So... does that mean that if a debtor defaults, the banks are shit out of luck? What keeps people with a MERS to just plain stop paying their mortgage? Seems like the banks will be the ones holding the bag no?

  33. Yeah, I got a notice a few months back that MERS my mortgage was assigned to MERS.

    I'm wondering, would it be worth kicking the sack and see what crawls out (i.e. send some sort of letter to my mortgage servicer asking about MERS and if they can show me the note that they have standing to collect my mortgage)?

    I'm not trying to get out of paying, I'm just curious what kind of response I'd get :)

  34. "What do you guys have against small and affordable Italian automobiles?"

    Cars only get affordable when they are several years old; and then they start needing repairs. You are not going to find these parts at your local parts store or at your local junk yard. So they are going to be more expensive and/or take longer to get. Likewise if you have to have a mechanic do the repairs, the local guy down the street who does repairs for the standard brands may well not be able to handle it--and you will have to go to a high priced specialist.

  35. interesting comments on anarchism:

  36. oldtimegal said...

    California Lawyer...

    If we went through foreclosure a couple of years ago and had to pay a large fee just to save our house and begin payments on it again, is it still possible to request our Note that goes along with the Deed? Possible to still take action or investigate?


    Sorry for your situation. Note well that I do not give legal advice over the internet. However, I can generalize to help you make decisions.

    I would encourage you to investigate. If you find that your note was not properly assigned, you may be able to extract favorable terms on a subsequent re-negotiation of your deal. Don't expect that such course of action will be either swift, easy, or cheap, though. I know of no lawyer who would embark on a course of representation like that for less than 4 figures, paid in advance. So, really, what is your upside?

    That leads to this basic proposition:

    Your personal situation is something I hear about on a daily basis. In California, a non-recourse state, the general rule is if you bought a house, and still live there, and are able to afford the monthly nut, then it is a business decision you must make regarding your own situation. You can stay, you can sell, you can walk away, etc. If you have a non-recourse loan, make the business decision based on your own circumstances.

    Most judges here in California are LOATHE to come to a conclusion that the borrower gets the home free and clear despite many legal problems with the paper, predatory lending, fraud, what have you.

    Even when the law is crystal clear, judges just cannot get past the gut reaction that the loan is wiped out and the borrower gets to keep the home free and clear. This is the reaction in Federal Court (Bankruptcy), too.

    So, in your situation, it comes back to a business decision you have to make for yourself.

    If you owe more than your house is worth, in a substantial fashion relative to your earnings situation and work-life expectancy, then you must make a business decision taking this reality into account. If home prices typically appreciate on average, 1-2% per year, and your home is underwater by 40-50%, really, do you want to stay in it or do you want to try to get out from under that huge obligation? If you are subject to a recourse loan, from either your state you live in, or in California because you refinanced, then you are in a horrible position. It means that if you walk away from the home, that you can still be pursued by the lender for the balance owed if the home does not sell at foreclosure for more than the debt you owe on the mortgage.

    I tell clients that if they are underwater more than 25%, then they had better have a damn good reason to stay or else they are not being financially smart.

    I had one client who refused to take her several hundred thousand dollars I got her and put it into safe savings. She instead went right out and bought a house. She told me that she did not want to rent, did not care if the home went down in value, because she could not stand to be a "renter." Okay. What am I supposed to tell her then?

    There are those who will just not accept the changing circumstances, and who cannot get the normalcy bias out of their mindset.

    I wish you the best. Good luck!

  37. @Diamond. You understand the article perfectly and the insight you've made is a reasonable one although it is your own insight and not present in the is also reasonable to say that shorts may enter the market on the next rise and exit causing a similar parabola. The article doesn't go that far.

    @Pailin - thanks for the Costata article on FOFOA. Great read and cause for new thoughts. I never did believe that the SLA could work fast enough and with deep enough pockets to bust whoever had the big short. Often mused to myself "what if the big short is playing US?".

    Costata's words won't change my actions. They will add to healthy skepticism.

    Good find and a must read for any kool-aid drinking bull types to ameliorate short-term thinking.

  38. California Lawyer...

    Thank you, kindly, for your response. I see you have others pondering as well.

  39. If all mortgages were cancelled, there would be a huge consumer led boom.

    Make it so Benny!!

  40. Calif Lawyer.

    Wow. So... does that mean that if a debtor defaults, the banks are shit out of luck? What keeps people with a MERS to just plain stop paying their mortgage? Seems like the banks will be the ones holding the bag no?


    My take on this is cynical, and others may have different opinions.

    Banks are never shit out of luck. Ask Vincent Foster, et al.

    Most decent folks honor their commitments. The vast majority are going to pay their mortgage. Only those buyers during the bubble have upside down mortgages worth walking away from.

    Hence, the huge overhang of shadow inventory, which the banks will not dump on the market. Banks have to keep this shadow inventory on their books, as performing assets, because they have not the capital to remain solvent if they properly write down the losses.

    If the former accounting rules were enforced, there would have been many bank failures from their stupid, risky lending. But no . . .

    Hence, the QE to the moon, to allow for risk free spreads so the banks can rebuild their balance sheets, and dribble out shadow inventory slowly, over time, so as not to tank the residential real estate market even more.

    We are looking at a decade at least of a correction. Longer still with all the financial shenanigans of late.

    I would not buy residential real estate now if you paid me. Farmland, however, is a very different story.

    So, banks will not be left holding the bag, taxpayers will, like always.

  41. Be aware that $1460 and $32 may not be bottoms.
    Oil has been in a bull market for a decade but it
    went from 147 to 32 before rebounding. It looked
    cheap at 90, 80, 70, 60, 50, 40, 39, 38, 37, 36, 35, 34, and if you sold at 33 you'd have every right to be pissed. I personally believe in a
    big dip followed by a quantum nuclear detonation. I also know that I can be completely
    wrong about every single firkin thing that I do
    say and think. So, the best advice is to wait for the 1460 and 31, buy just a little, expect it to fall some more......and then be pleasantly suprised one day when a violent eruption takes place. Then we'll all know that its time to bet the ranch (figuratively speaking).

  42. I just tossed this comment up on Yukon's blog. It's basically that last thing I have to say about Martin Armstrong:

    Eric#1 said...
    I think you nailed it when you said today's magic Armstrong date will mark the shift "from something, to something else". Plus I was reading somewhere,(from Kliguys' blog maybe?) that basically it might take a year or two to determine what hugely significant thing happened today.

    Nice work if you can get it. Beats the pants off of every tarot card reader, palm reader, crystal ball gazer, and horoscope bullshitter ever born.
    June 13, 2011 3:13 PM

  43. There is always talk on this blog about the big banks manipulating things, but on the other hand, I have not seen as much talk about whom is on our side of the trade, unless I am wrong. My guess has always been our friends over in china, but who knows.

  44. Thanks Turd. Like one poster mentioned your batting average is still waaay above average. Personally I look forward to the PM duldrums this summer. Simply an advantageous time to accumulate more physical at bargain prices. Looking forward to the new site.

  45. The most difficult thing it seems is to predict the manipulative power of the EE with respect to the PM's. There was so much speculation that they would go bankrupt and lose their power and control over the daily price of gold and silver. But alas, that has not happened and so we remain in doubt if or when this might occur, or even at all. The danger we face is that we have no way of knowing just exactly how much power these criminals have or even if they are actually in danger of collapse and/or default. In the meantime, at any time they chose, it seems, they could take the PM market down by a hefty margin, cover or coverup all their shorts, devastate the mining shares, and continue for another day of criminal activity. Under these circumstances, no one can be very confident in projecting likely future prices and therefore make good short term trading decisions. These conditions appear to be likely, many analyst have stated, until the BOS return in the fall.

    The only thing I see that might change this is a sudden announcement by the FED that QE will resume, or a sudden sustained drop in the dollar index. What might trigger such an event is anyone's guess. Perhaps, the euro problems are resolved temporarily and the euro strengthens causing the dollar to go into decline, a huge flair-up in the middle east and the flow of oil is severely disrupted, or someone sets off a nuclear bomb somewhere igniting the fuse to WWW3?
    Regardless, for me its going to be a long boring summer as the PM's move sideways to down. I was hoping, as were many of you, that this summer would be different. That at the very least, we would see a minor dip from the recent highs we experienced and mostly sideways action through to the middle of summer. And then, somewhere in early August a resumption of the rally we experienced through April. Oh well, time to just go out and have some summer fun then, at least until some significant change occurs which would bring us back to our computer screens. In the meantime happy summertime rest and relaxation to all.

  46. So, effective tomorrow, Gammon Gold changes it's name to AuRIco Gold, and it's ticker to AUQ.

    One of the stupidest sounding name changes I've ever heard of. So I'll probably dump the sucker on that basis alone. It don't take much to get a guy to fall out of love with a miner these days. Basically tells me the marketing department (an IDIOT marketing department) is running the company now.

    Thanks for letting me vent, guys.

  47. Only two choices in the next few months for the O......either the Fed steps in with an "audacious" monetary plan....or O comes up with a fiscal stimulus "probably tax cuts and incentives" that light a fire under this market.....the republicpukes cannot veto tax cuts or credits...that will mark the next fire for the PMs.....meanwhile....bend over and take it like men.

  48. I swear to verify was REARROD on the above post..hehehehhehehe

  49. @Eric1: LOL! And here I was expecting the clouds to part and angels to trumpet. That or deamons to pour out the vent in the clouds.

    (But, in this 8.1928347173 yearly trough of the larger 60.327362662 year cycle I'm leaning more to daemons :) )

  50. A - problem with small Italian cars? You have a point. Maybe we should just rename the POSX the Yugo and leave the fiats in Europe.

    Yugo has to be pushed or rolled down a hill to start. Own it long enough and it'll eventually roll off a cliff.

  51. Turd, no worries about launching the new site. This one has worked fine so far, for the most part. Websites are always, always always launched later than projected and deadlines are always missed by almost every one of them. The only sites that start on schedule seem to have problems and have to be taken down and fixed. So maybe count your blessings.

    Probably best that it didn't start today with this market. Better to begin fresh on a FUBM day.

    Now, if we could just get one of those. Oh, the good old days...

  52. What if, and who knows when (before the fall?) Comex can't supply the physical metal on the next or so delivery date. Would that mean that the paper and physical markets separate, so it is not possible to buy or sell silver derivatives anymore? End of papertrade game, so just buy the fucking metal.
    That means only gold (and other commodities) left to trade on paper?
    Just wondering.

  53. I believed in your 42.50-ish number also. I believed in you! Surprised you were that optimistic since QE2 (and its effects) had essentially ended and that cash would be king for a short while (end of June) It's all in the timing, right Turd? Now we're in full fledged summer! You're still pretty damn good, all things considered.

  54. @ kristian_jk

    BTFM, buy the Fucking metal, should be a new rally cry.

    I give you credit for coining it!

  55. So, WHY WHY WHY you might ask, Eric why are you still swapping some silver for gold at this stupid GSR of 43-44? Well, here's why:

    1) My long term plan is to swap probably 80%+ of my silver into gold.
    2) My average cost on all my silver is around $20 an ounce.
    3) Even at this GSR, it's like going back in time (the wayback machine) and buying gold at 880 an ounce (20 times 44). Not bad.

    As Pailin said this morning, gold is money, silver is .... something else.

  56. From zerohedge comment:

    "by TideFighter
    on Mon, 06/13/2011 - 16:28

    I used to trade mortgage securities like M&M's. Now, I sit on an advisory board of a regional bank. Do you want to be privy of the boardroom's whispers? On several occasions, I have reviewed our RE portfolio reports (RE & CRE) at the request of the board after receiving such request from Fannie and Freddie. A massive, three-year writedown plan is being proposed in the area of 25% to 40%. The hold up is specific geographic valuation conditions. Moreover, if you live in DC, you may get little or no write-down. If you live in Las Vegas, you could win the lottery. The reports all have the same conclusion, a massive write-down will create defaults even in those areas that have not depreciated much. Bottom line, it is extremely questionable to continue paying your mortgage until the write-down occurs. Naturally, this will be before the 2012 elections."


    This sounds very accurate, and scary.

    Think about it.

    In those states which trend republican, Obama's people will create massive subsidies in the form of much greater mortgage principal write-downs, but in already solid democratic strongholds, there will not be much, if any, writedowns. Makes perfect political sense.

    Banks suffer some haircuts, but not across the board. Sheeple in key districts vote democratic, and voila, problem kicked down the road further.

  57. I do not want to insult any one, however I feel like telling you guys that SILVER IS MONEY, just as gold.

    Whoever gave you that false idea that silver was something else is plain wrong.

    Silver has been used as money for many many years, and not because it was not seen in England (or was it?) as money, doesn't mean that Spain didn't saw it as is.

    Remember that the Spanish Empire collapsed due to the inflation created by all the mining done in the New World. (Take into consideration all that mined silver in a vast land, taken to a very small piece of land -the iberian peninsula-, thus creating a silver hyperinflation)
    This will happen again with the dollar, however this time it wont be as SMALL as the fall of the Spanish Empire.. this time is going to be huge (thanks to Mr. Bernanke and friends)

  58. @Eric #1...

    After missing three good opportunities to swap silver for gold, and after watching for good opportunities again, last Thursday I got "lucky" and swapped a third of my physical silver for gold to make my physical mix approximately 50-50 and I did it for all the same reasons you mentioned. I just felt wayyyyy overweighted in silver and now I'm a good mix of "stable" to "volatile/speculative" and I feel better for it.

  59. Comex default? I've only been following this since last fall and today seems as good a day as any to ask a question I haven't been able to find the answer to:

    If needed can't the Comex just borrow or outright buy spot silver from one of its members?

    Ya know, in a pinch. Neighbour can I get a cup of sugar.

    Presumably they've been selling down their inventory while prices were at historical highs. Should have money in the coffers to replace it at $35 or even $40.

    Net it's a small gamble for them.

  60. PS By "50-50" I meant in % of holdings in fiat (there's that small Italian car again!) on that day, not in ounces.

  61. Raul V

    Yeah, I was probably a bit more of a flamethrower than I needed to be on that one. Bottom line, I like silver, I own a bunch of silver, but in my heart of hearts I'm a gold guy. Can't escape that.

    I hope gold goes up. I hope silver goes up. I hope we all make buckets of money. Sometimes I say things, or others say things, on this blog that restart the gold vs silver war. It's a waste of time. We are all on the same team in the end. My apologies.

  62. Hey guys XAG/USD at 36 guaranteed. After that just cash out for a while.

  63. Fort

    Well done. Finding that happy mix is the holy grail. I'm at about 68% gold right now. For me that feels still heavy on the silver. But that's just me. I'm a gold guy. I'm wired that way, and I can't change it. To each their own. It's all about balance and it's different for everybody.

  64. News has just come out that Greece's debt rating has been slashed to the lowest in the world

  65. If you think you owe payments to a bank to pay for your house think again. The following probably describes the fiduciary relationship to your lending institution. I shall proved further proof of the that the following is probably your situation upon request from anyone that I continue this line of reasoning.

    Affiants affirm that if any loan occurred in this transaction, it was the Affiants who temporarily loaned credit to the “Lender”. This is evidenced by the following two facts: (1) the” Lender” accepted the Affiant’s Note, not as a promissory note containing the promise of a future payment, but as a monetized negotiable instrument which constituted the creation of newly issued credit into an account controlled by the “Lender”, and (2) by the appearance of credit or “money of account” showing up in the “Lender’s“ “books”, the “Lender” experienced a financial benefit in the exact amount on the Note; a credit that originated from the Affiant. Further, the Affiants affirm that the” Lender” identifies the Note/credit amount that it received from the Affiants, as an asset.

  66. 16. “Lender” created and promulgated false assumptions. The Affiants affirm that, as of the date the above-described NOTE was signed, along with other “mortgage” documents, including the accompanying security instrument, the Affiants were deceived into believing the following false assumptions:
    a. A loan was being provided to the Affiants by a “lender”, and
    b. Said loan had not yet been provided to the Affiants by the time the NOTE was signed, and
    c. The above-described NOTE is the said loan and said loan commenced on the date the NOTE was signed, and
    d. The NOTE would not be used for any purpose other than executing and commemorating a standard loan arrangement where actual money was being lent.

  67. Shill said...
    quick start blaming the EE instead of the fact that this is purely a technical play... i outlined may times the BIG fucking bearish flag and no one listened...

    Can you explain in detail or show a chart someway so I can see the flag. I do not know what you are talking about. I suggest that people do not listen because they do not see a flag. now if you drew the flag that would be different. how is it formed. give dates and prices for the straight lines. etc. so we can draw it with ease.

    Turd has been drawing a pennant not a flag. I see a pennant. In fact silver broke out the bottom of that pennant.


  68. taking your advice, and taking the summer off (of everything) do i get to blame you when I lose money?

  69. ok , ok , i'll chime in on the swap talk...
    i sold several 10 oz silver bars to an acquaintance... for the "shown to him E-bay price" of $405.00 ea. :0 CASH. shhhhhh
    Then guess what i did... :)
    1 Gold Eagle... thank you!!

  70. Several facts that contravene the above assumptions have become apparent.

    a. Affiants affirm that a loan had not been provided to the Affiants and had not been received by the Affiants as of the date the NOTE was signed, and
    b. Affiants affirm that the author of the NOTE falsely and deceptively stated that the Affiants had received a loan when, in fact, no loan had been received by the Affiants, and
    c. Affiants affirm that the only thing that commenced on the date the Note was signed was the execution of the Note wherein a promise of a payment was made, and
    d. Affiants affirm that the Affiants signed documents which the Affiants believed to be a standard mortgage, loan, and Note with the standard relationships between borrower and Lender when such was not the case. The records and research of the Affiants indicate that, with the signing of the Note and the execution of the Deed of Trust, the Affiants were deceived into believing the false notion that a long-term, ongoing financial obligation was created, when in fact the promise of payment was quickly fulfilled in its entirely.

    If you understand the implications and facts from the statements above, then you know you did not receive consideration, or a loan from the bank in the form of money, then you know that you do not own the bank any money. That's all for now.

  71. Sometimes it's justice, sometimes it's law.

    No doubt some entity loaned me money. The bank seems capable of taking my payments and satisyfing the entity. There is no question I should be making payments as I contiue to enjoy the home right?

    I know, I know, this isn't a popular thing to say.

  72. I appreciate your sense of humour, Turd. Don't you go changing for some asshole who can't appreciate both it and the free public service you provide. Thank You.

  73. Eric #1

    Indeed we are in the same boat, however many (very important people) like FOFOA, do tend to play down the Silver as Money talk.

    I am a Gold person as well, however one thing is accumulate gold for wealth preservation and another is using Silver for wealth creation / preservation.

    Using a mix of AGQ / SLV Calls (or its contrarian formula ZSL / SLV Puts) almost guarantees a nice wealth creation "formula".

    I love gold just as anyone, but just by looking at each (Gold and Silver) return, I still think we're a long way to go -either up or down- in the Silver drama.

    I believe there won't be a COMEX default -at least not in the foreseeable future-, this was guaranteed by all the manipulation they did with all those Rate Hikes, remember the "EE" does everything in plain view and telegraphing all, so a COMEX default on Silver is (in the meantime) highly unprobable, IMHO.

  74. HappyInTheWoods said...
    No doubt some entity loaned me money.

    The fact of the matter is that no entity lent you a dime. The money for your house was created out of thin air by the lending institution base sole upon your signing the note. If you did the proper investigation into the nature of the relationship of your so called "lending institution" you would discover that you don't owe them a dime.

    May I additionally remind you that our monetary system at its core is a complete fraud and lie. We do not have money in circulation as defined by the constitution. What we have in circulation is a money substitute known as debt money; fiat money. It has no value intrinsic or otherwise except for the confidence people falsely place in it. Therefore all monetary transactions conducted with any bank, which uses this false money as its currency, are on their face null and void. I would be happy to supply additional factual arguments to support this claim.

  75. Are we expecting the silver price to rally again due to greece's news?

  76. i. Affiants affirm that the “Lender” accepted the Affiant’s debt obligation (the promise to repay) as an asset on its books, thus monetizing the Affiant’s signature, and
    ii. Affiants affirm that the “Lender” then created on its books a liability in the form of a demand deposit or other demand liability. Affiants further affirm that if this is the case, the “Lender’s” original bookkeeping entry for Affiant’s “account” shows an increase in the amount of the asset being credited on the asset side of its books and a corresponding increase on the liability side of its books equal to the value of the asset (amount on the Note.), and
    iii. Affiants affirm that if the “Lender” received the Affiant’s signed promise to repay as an asset, and if the “Lender” is also considering the monetized amount as a continuing debt to the “Lender”, showing the “balance” of this “debt” as a demand deposit in a transaction account on behalf of the Affiants, the “Lender” is in gross error, and
    iv. Affiants affirm that instead of the “Lender” lending money to the Affiants, as the Affiants reasonably believed from the face of the Note, the Affiants, by signing and providing the Note to the “Lender”, created the credit assigned to the above-described transaction account without the Affiant’s permission, authorization, or knowledge, and
    v. Affiants affirm that for all intents and purposes, the Affiants originated the funds used in the transaction. Soon thereafter, or in anticipation of receipt of the signed Note, the “Lender" entered the credit on its own books, falsely representing those funds as having been lent to the Affiants, and
    vi. Affiants affirm the not only did the “Lender” not lend money to the Affiants, the “Lender” didn’t even lend to the Affiants credit that originated with the “Lender” (see Affirmation # 10), and
    vii. Affiants further affirm that the “Lender” failed to disclose any details about the true nature of the transaction, such as, but not limited to, the above-described details, and
    viii. Affiants affirm that there is only one true and correct conclusion to derive from the above-described transaction: the promise to pay (or repay), as described in the Note, was fulfilled and the obligation, which has also been referred to as a “debt”, has been completely and fully satisfied, and ix. In light of the above, the Affiants affirm that the “Lender” was: (1) in error to record this transaction on its books as a liability, (2) in error when it failed to disclose the true nature of the transaction to the Affiants, (3) in error to declare, in the language of the Note, that the Affiants had “received” a loan, when in fact that declaration could not have been further from the truth, and (4) in error when, as Beneficiary of the Deed of Trust, it failed to abide by the terms of the Deed of Trust by failing to inform the Trustee that the obligation referred to in the Deed of Trust had been satisfied.

  77. ben. Thanks. If I understand the riddle it works like this:

    The seller of my home received fiat money.
    I agreed that I would repay fiat money.
    No entity can prove I received a loan.

    So I've agreed to repay fiat money, and I have an institution that will accept the fiat and satisfy whomever wished this fiat into existence.

    However, despite using the fiat system to acquire my home I now reject it on repayment.

    Hardly seems honorable.

    Does seem like the law though.

    Just curious and at the risk of sending this off-topic: If I were to use fiat to fully repay the non-loan has the bank screwed up the note and deed situation such that I could not properly have unencumbered title?

  78. Eric #1

    can you give the urls for Yukons blog and Kliguys' blog


  79. @ Happy Woodsman

    yeah. the same folks clamoring to be bailed out from underneath the bad mortgages they freely took out on their homes are simultaneously probably the loudest ones bitching about the bank bailouts due to the poor loans they made.

    funny how the same shoe seems to fit the other foot just fine.

    and of course the stupid mortgage paying, tax paying, little to no debt because they live within their means working stiffs will be required to bail out these people too.

    what a racket this all is.

  80. @better looking than brad,

    Exactly. I do find it inconsistent. Or perhaps disturbingly consistent.

    I come to this blog for the integrity Turd displays.

    Too bad there isn't a negotiation possible. That is, I'll suspend payments right now as there is evidence of fraud. Then repay when you sentence all persons that have fraudulently brought paperwork into existence and all persons who reviewed/approved it. (ie follow up on that 60 minutes article)

  81. The FED creates debt-money out of thin air by decree. This is why it is call fiat money. In the same way, when you go to the bank for money to buy your house, they do it exactly as does the FED, by monetizing your signature on the note. So, they create money out of thin air also, based upon the note you signed(but they didn't sign)and your credit worthiness. So, the cash you were given was worthless and created out of nothing by in effect monetizing your signature. This is clearly fraud and based upon that you do not owe them any money in any form fiat or otherwise.

  82. This was all fairly predictable and part of the EE plan of ending QE2 in my view... taking things down before resuming to QE3 in the fall (if not sooner). Summer dips will be good buying opportunities for physical.

  83. This is just one small example as to how our monetary/financial system is a complete fraud, like, and rotten in every way imaginable to it's core.

    1. The money we use in circulation is a lie.

    2. The loans that banking institutions are fraudulently created out of thin air.

    3. These loans for mortgages are then sliced and diced and then sold illegally in the form of SIV's, CDO's, and derivatives.

    4. The transfer of the note and deed of trust are illegally transferred through MERS.

    5. The loans are also created illegally by loaning to unqualified borrowers who have no documentation proving employment, income, or credit worthiness.

  84. ben the thing is I didn't keep the worthless fiat.

    No sir I must confess I passed it to the seller. Now I have this house. And to my chagrin I recieved it by passing worthless something to the previous owner.

    Have I, too committed fraud?

  85. Raul V said.....
    Using a mix of AGQ / SLV Calls (or its contrarian formula ZSL / SLV Puts) almost guarantees a nice wealth creation "formula".

    can you explain this. how do we make money with this.

    calls on
    AGQ Ultra Silver 2X
    SLV 1X silver

    puts on
    ZSL Ultra Silver short 2X
    SLV 1X silver

    you used a 2X long and 2X short but you used the same SLV

    you used calls and puts.

    I am lost completely.

    are you doing only options on the etfs

    are you implying there is a very high probability way to trade this for almost guaranteed profits.

    I understand nothing is guaranteed but there are a few high probability investments in this world.

  86. Sheeeoooot. I hope the seller doesn't have a clever lawyer ;)

  87. @ragedmaximus said...
    sometimes i think i should just cash out ira and head for the bunny ranch for a few weeks ..
    June 13, 2011 4:08 PM
    Is that THE Bunny Ranch ?

    @A said...
    What do you guys have against small and affordable Italian automobiles?
    June 13, 2011 4:09 PM
    Thanks A and raged...I'm still laughing..on a day like today!

    @Raged..RE cash out the IRA
    I started cashing out and converting to Gold/Silver/Nickels last year, hope to be out of all but my Roth by early 2012..

    I'm old enough to avoid penalties, don't expect the taxes to decrease in the years ahead, and when the SHTF expect the money in the retirement accounts to be taken in some pleasant sounding scheme like "Let us make sure you are safe by forcing you to put half of your funds in US Bonds"

  88. 19. No valid contract, no obligation. Affiants affirm that there exists no valid contract between the “Lender” and Affiants. The Note and the Deed of Trust are the purported to be binding contracts between the above parties. However, both documents lack the integral elements that constitute a valid, legally enforceable contract. Where there is no valid contract, there are no actual, enforceable obligations.

    b. Affiants affirm that the following facts preclude the above-described Note and Deed of Trust from being able to be considered legally binding contracts:
    i. Affiants affirm that the offer is vague or non-existent. The Note states that a loan had been received by Affiants, but fails to state who provided the loan, the date of the loan, or reference any documentation of said loan. Perhaps if a loan had been received, this could have been made part of an offer. As it is, whatever the offer might be, said offer MUST BE specific so that it can be accepted. Without an offer, there can be no actual acceptance, and
    ii. Affiants affirm that there is no mutuality of obligation, or “meeting of the minds” Between “Lender” and Affiants, and
    1. Affiants affirm that there is no definitive certainty and/or agreement as to the entire subject matter, and
    2. There is no offer to accept. An oblique reference to an alleged loan that had allegedly already been “received” is not an offer or an acceptance. A mere reference to an event that allegedly already occurred cannot be considered to be any part of the Note or the Deed of Trust, which had not, as of the date of the Note and Deed of Trust, and still has not, been ratified by both parties.

  89. Sometimes I hate to be correct.

    I'm afraid i have more bad news:
    The debt ceiling could put much more pressure on inflation expectations.
    The longer it isn't raised, the more markets will start to price in that it will be reached. A reached debt limit means no wages for many people. Means Dollars are getting even more scarce, while putting pressure on true money of Au & Ag.
    I hope i'm not correct, but be warned and be prepared.

  90. They are many good reasons for allowing people to remain in their foreclosed/underwater houses. For one, it keeps them off the streets where they might riot or demonstrate. In the 1930s banks were widely reviled for their foreclosures on farms and homes, after there were photos published of farmers being kicked to the curb and watching everything they owned being auctioned off by the banks. Beyond that, the houses themselves will be in much better shape if their former or current owners are allowed to stay in them as opposed to having them sit empty and rotting/molding/vandalized. Those pointing a moral finger at underwater home owners might recall that in commercial real estate, default is a standard business practice, with no one getting all moralist about that. Apparently if you are in business and get over your head it's OK, but if you own a home and default, you are breaking several of the 10 commandments.

  91. 3. At the time of this transaction, Affiants had no idea of the true nature of the transaction as outlined above, and
    a. “Lender” failed to disclose the true meaning of the fact that, for a very short period of time, Affiants actually held title to the subject property “free and clear”, no encumbrances, no liens, no obligations of any kind, and
    b. “Lender” failed to disclose that Affiant was the originator of the credit that was used to effectuate the purchase of the subject property, nor did Affiants agree to this in advance, and
    c. “Lender“ failed to disclose that the entire debt/obligation described in the Note and Deed of Trust would be satisfied once the Note was monetized by the ”Lender”, nor would Affiants ever knowingly agree to pay the debt/obligation twice, and
    4. There is nothing in the alleged contract that describes any real performance of the “Lender”, and
    5. Although Affiants signed said documents, no one else did. There is no valid contract when one or more of the parties to the alleged contract fail to sign and date said contract, and
    6. In light of the fact that a loan was never received, Affiants are left to assume that there was either some other form of exchange, besides the lending of money, in exchange for a security instrument, or there was, in fact, no actual exchange of equals, and
    Affiants affirm that there is a complete lack of consideration in the alleged contracts.
    1. Affiants purchased the subject property with Affiant’s own credit by agreeing to allow” Lender” to access Affiant’s credit, and
    2. “Lender” realized instant financial gain from the transaction when “Lender” accessed Affiant’s credit and monetized it, and
    3. “Lender” provided absolutely no financial consideration in the transaction as said financial consideration was provided, in full, by Affiants, and
    iv. Although Affiants were competent to enter into a contract at the time of the transaction, Affiants affirm that the question of Affiant’s competency to enter into an otherwise legally binding contract was negated when “Lender” failed to provide full disclosure as to the true nature of the transaction. No one who is unaware of all the underlying facts and premises concerning a given contract is a competent party to such an arrangement.

  92. for all those feeling lost today, i hope you check out these updates daily. i enjoy his tv appearances, too...

  93. old saying:

    Gold is the currency of kings, SILVER is the currency of gentelmen, barter is the currency of peseants, debt is the currency of slaves.

    Now we have to figure it out which caste we belong to?! :)

  94. @sockeye1

    I guess I did not explain myself, sorry about that

    What I do (and I suspect many of us do) is buy some SLV Calls (lets say, SLV 34s for this month --aprox 5k per contract), and also AGQ (not Calls or puts, but the whole enchilada).

    Wait for the % do it's trick and get out (or it'll bite you)

    Same thing on the way down, however it is alost impossible to do that due to the fact that it always goes down pretty fast, so you need to "have the feeling it might go down" whilst on the upside, you can just ride the uptrend for a while.

    Hope I was cleared it this time for you sockeye1

  95. Why are you sorry SI didn't hit $42? It was a fool's promise - after rallying over 100% in basically a year, people were still piling in at the high 40s, thinking its a BARGAIN.


    Sitting happy with my SLV July 40s (puts) as well as 25s which i picked up at a dime.

    I strongly suggest anyone who has calls for june or july to get out of them while theyre still worth at least a nickel.

  96. ben. Thanks for the posts based on affiants.

    I'm no legal beagle as you might have guessed by now, just shacked up in the woods and happy.

    If I understand those fine words correctly it sounds like a bunch of poeple gathered together to get out of a contract they made and for some reason don't like now.

    It doesn't sound like there is anything to complain about the home they live in, or the interest rate being...what's the word...usurious...or that they weren't able to close on the home properly.

    What's the beef? I can't pay you because you screwed up the paperwork? CAN"T or WON"T?

  97. ben
    do you use this "worthless" fiat in any of your daily transactions?
    did you sign an agreement with the bank to pay back this scrofulous currency in exchange for the right for you and/or your family to inhabit said property?

    if yes to either, there is a moral hazard evident here. no?

  98. "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World"

  99. Banks are such thoroughly corrupt criminal mafia type enterprises that to pay them any money at all would, in effect, be supporting, aiding, and abetting a criminal enterprise. It is nearly a crime to pay back any money to a bank, when in fact you did not really borrow any money in the first place. The whole banking and monetary system is a complete illusion and lie.

  100. what about all the people who were foreclosed and out of the house. Can they get back into the house. They were defrauded at the time of the so called loan and defrauded when foreclosed and evicted.

    It is a bad deal because it takes a lot of money with a lawyer to fight the case and the home owner is broke having given all his money to the bank to try to maintain his home.

  101. Hey Ben, if we are basically saying that thereis no legal contract there given the offer, consideration, acceptance idea, what "right" would the current occupant of the home have to remain in the house and wouldn't this just cause a "backward cascading chain of non-contracts" or at least dump the house back to the previous owner(s) until the chain of non-contracts was broken with a valid one?

  102. ok, carry on then, ben.

    while i'm paying for every other sort of welfare entitlement to 3/4 of my state, i'll try to find the means to chip in to pay off your house too.

  103. James Turk added some new trading commentary.

    "Trading Comments, 13 June 2011 (posted 09h15 CET):

    Think about the change in sentiment toward the precious metals that has taken place over the past six weeks. Even though nothing has changed the underlying factors favorable to the precious metals, gold and particularly silver have moved from dominating the headlines to barely a mention by anyone. This observation describes the way corrections work, so this current one is typical.

    Another point to note is the basing pattern the precious metal prices have been forming. It too is typical for a correction.

    From their chart pattern and the change in sentiment, we can conclude that the precious metals correction is nearing its end. Today’s price drop in silver is bringing this metal toward my buy point for which we have been waiting the past week. I will again attempt to bottom-pick. We will see whether support holds. If it does, be ready to buy gold and silver on strength, with buy stops above the market."

    There's a bit more at:

  104. The criminal banksters for hundreds of years were looking for a means to create gold from lead, i.e. alchemy. They succeeded with the creation of fiat. Its hard to get your mind wrapped around the extent and the profound degree to which this crime and fraud affects every single detail of our lives. We have all been turned in to slaves by means of the debt based monetary system which we were born into. Escaping this slave system is extremely difficult as it was designed by very powerful extremely brilliant evil and criminal minds. I have to a great extent extricated myself from this monetary matrix. However, the system is so pervasive that it is not possible to fully escape from it entirely. That would mean complete and total self sufficiency, very very difficult to achieve. Yes, I still use fiat but as little as possible. I am totally debt free and have no credit cards or bank accounts. What most people don't understand is the extent to which each and everyone of us has been robbed our entire lives by these thieves. Had this nation remained on the gold and silver standing since 1913 when the FED was formed, I guesstimate each of us would have inherited on average no less than five million dollars from our ancestors. That includes every single person born in this country who had relatives going back one hundred years or approximately five generations.

  105. Every couple of weeks when the price of silver falls like it did today, I pick up between 5 and 10 ounces of physical. It is a slow process but since the fall I've been able to secure a pretty big stack. Let the EE keep playing with the price. By the fall I might well reach my goal of 1k ozs.

  106. Conspiracy theory

    DOW closed Friday down 172, Drop the 1 we take the 7 & 2 add those together and we get 9. Add today's close which was 1


    My wife says I think way to hard lol

  107. Raul V

    I might be more confused now. You suggest going long twice. once long by buying calls on the commodity exchange a $34 call on 5000 ounces. And at the same time going long by purchase of 2X long ETF.

    This is not low risk. This is double high risk.

    Once you seem to call 5000 ounces of silver on the commodity exchange SLV and Also use SLV to refer to a ETF sold like stocks ( sort of ) paying cash for each share.

    Maybe what you mean is that you offer me 2 choices but I can use the 1 choice I like better for me. meaning I can purchase commodity options or buy 2x ETF shares. Either or both giving me extra leverage on my money.

  108. If I buy $50000 USD on any given moment of AGQ, and wait until it's 10% over the price I bought it, I made 5k (whilst at the same time I would have made 2,500 using SLV, using GLD I may have made 100 dlls, due to GLDs very low volatility -compared to SLVs)

    At the same time, if I buy 45000 of AGQ


    5000 of SLV Calls 10% over the market price (buy @ 34 dlls a 37dlls Call)

    The % made would be higer than using AGQ alone once I sell all.

    This of course is just an example and does not determine future market behaviour

    At the same time, I would have made much more $$ than what silver spot had gone up -therefore, I would be able to go out and buy physical with out losing my initial investment -that is if you do not take into account the whole Fiat manipulation-

  109. sockeye1

    When you Call, you call in USD, not ounces.. ;)

    You use the USD made after the investment to buy even more silver.

  110. i agree there is going to be another real opportunity to re-enter the PM market, titus. including the miners.

    the trick of course, as always, is the timing.

    but pretty soon the downside is going to be limited enough to make wading back in more than worth the risk.

  111. Sockeye

  112. @All

    The word for Money and Silver is the same in how many languages?
    I can think of three: Spanish, Hebrew, French…


  113. Turd et al:

    Thanks for the kind words. I am not worthy.

    You shouldn't take it so hard. Talk is cheap

    The following is for paper traders ONLY:

    #1. The seasonals have once again exerted their dominant force. Trade paper only from the short side until 1 of the following occurs
    (a) game changing event that the mkt focus on
    (b) August arrives.

    #2. The past 2 trading session all you had to do was watch WTI, the dollar and the euro in that order and you knew where gold and silver were going.

    #3. As I have already said I have been short AGQ, Gld and EXK since Thursday. I closed all those positions at the close of business today looking for a bounce to put them back on.

    #4. I expect really big thngs on the upside for gold and silver by year end. Nothing changed for fundos. But you must know that mkt focus on one thing at a time rightly or wrongly. Now it is seasonals and risk off and stronger dollar.

    #5. Those that control these mkts want to buy at lower prices. This is the time of year they accomplish it.

    #6. The mkt is high risk at these levels and is untradeable for most with a definable risk. Never the less, here are the #'s I would like to re-establish shorts: silver at 36.00 area. I can't call it to the penny. Gold again on rallies to and above 1528. EXK again on ralleis back to 8.25 to 8.50.

    #7. I no longer read posts from trolls, posers or detractors. So fire away and hit me with you best shot. I also will not post as much as it effects my performance.

  114. Yup..

    Argent = French = Money

    In Spanish, in argentina, plata = money = silver

    Also, the Peseta in Spain is derived from the pieces of Silver (correct me if I'm wrong on this one), which derived in the word "Pesos"

  115. @atlee

    I, as always, hear you mate..!

    I hope you could keep us posted on what you expect (just like you did), 'cause its always helpful

    I'm swing trading right now, taking care of those swings between 38 and 34.

    However, as you say it's the end of it. Will have to wait until August :)

    Word Verification: turdis --WTF?!

  116. It's going to take awhile for most of you to fully grasp the nature and meaning of my posts today, but given sufficient thought, due diligence, and research into the legal-monetary issues I have raised, I believe you, as I have, will come to the same conclusions. Sometimes, it requires that you question everything you have ever been taught about many things regarding money and all that it touches in your lives. The legal system, the Uniform Commercial Code,Corporate law,the Income Tax Code and common law contract law, have all been tied and mixed up together in one giant financial/legal matrix very hard to circumvent. I wish and hope everyone of you success in this area as your very lives depend upon at least your understanding of it, because it will help you to prepare for the coming demise of the Keynesian model.

    I have provided the some of the basic concepts you might use as the premise in a civil suit against your bank. However, such an endeavor would require considerable research to do pro se. Hiring an attorney would be cost prohibitive and extremely dangerous unless you knew every detail of the law in this area. Or, were lucky enough to find an attorney honest enough to represent you. But, in my opinion, there are plenty of legal reasons to do so, given the material in my previous posts.

  117. This comment has been removed by the author.

  118. I see we have come back to the gold vs silver discussion a little. Seems like right now is a good time to stack either. It seems to be a matter of preference more than anything else, the physiological draw to own physical gold is something I have never fully understood, but I respect when others go for the gold so to speak.

    In strict financial terms however, silver has outperformed gold since 2008 so if what you want is return on your investment... just sayin:)

    The only gold I will ever consider owning is what comes pre-packaged in a set of silver coins from the mint, and I just like to keep the original packaging intact in 'mint' condition. The 1993 philadelphia set with the ASE and three gold pieces for example. No disrespect meant to anyone, especially Eric#1. I still say gold is good, and gold is great, but ask yourself which is more likely to double in value first. jmho

    either way keep stackin folks!

  119. HappyInTheWoods said...

    Sometimes it's justice, sometimes it's law.

    No doubt some entity loaned me money. The bank seems capable of taking my payments and satisyfing the entity. There is no question I should be making payments as I contiue to enjoy the home right?

    I know, I know, this isn't a popular thing to say.


    The concept you are talking about is well known in the law, and goes by different names.

    Simply, you have derived a benefit from living in your house, which house you do not own outright. If you do not provide value in exchange for that benefit, then you have been what is called "unjustly enriched," and could be legally required to pay what is called "restitution" to whomever happens legally to be the one to whom the restitution is owed. The one to whom restitution is owed is the owner of the house, or the lender, if you borrowed money and pledged the house as collateral.

    The problem, is to whom is the restitution owed if a question arises as to ownership? In the MBS situation, the originating bank funded the loan originally, but has been repaid by selling the note to the investment trust through a series of transactions all designed to put distance between the bank and the trust for liability purposes. Again, you can thank the damn lawyers for making this so complicated.

    Now, the right to receive payments from you in the form of rent or the repayment of debt does not belong to the bank, but to the investment trust, but the promissory note has been sliced and diced into various tranches, of which it is legally impossible to decipher and distinguish in whom the right to receive payments exists.

    Let's make a little example. Let's say there are three investors who each gave money to the bank, specifically to buy your loan and a hundred other loans just like yours. The bank did not simply assign the loans to the trust. Instead, to generate more money, the bank sliced up the loans into tranches, with investor A getting the first stream of payments from all the loans at 4%, investor B getting the second stream of payments at 6%, and investor C getting the last stream of payments at 8%. Investor A pays more than investors B and C, because investor A is at the top of the heap, and will be repaid first. This paper is rated higher too. Investors B and C pay less, but get better interest rates. So, by creating securities, the bank makes more money, and generates fees for turing the loans into securities.

    All of the terms of the investment trust are spelled out in a thick, 1000 page document called a pooling and servicing agreement.

    Let's say that there have been some foreclosures, and some people do not pay their loans but live in the house anyway. Who is legally allowed to foreclose? To whom are the payments owed?

    Legally, none of the individual investors can foreclose, since they do not hold the note. Likewise, none of the investors can demand payment from you. Instead, legally, only the trustee of the trust can receive payments, or foreclose. But, because MERS never did get a legal assignment, then when they try to foreclose, they cannot. So, who gets the right to receive payment from you?

    The originating bank certainly has the right to receive payment, but since they sold the loan, what incentive do they have to do anything about it? Also, there was not just a single transaction from the bank to the trust. There were SEVERAL. So, at which point does the legal trail break down and the legal right to receive payment become severed? Who knows? Every single case is different, all 6 million of them!

    At some point, if you have not been paying, someone will want their money, and you may end up owing it. But, there is also the possibility that it is impossible down the road to figure out who actually has the right to collect! Who knows? Or as Turd says, WTFK, or WTFDIK?

  120. Ben...

    I don't think that there is a single person here who disagrees with you, but that said, given the current legal climate, the only thing it will get you is the new "Irwin Schiff of 2011" award... absolutely correct, but in jail nonetheless.

  121. come to think of it, i'd be paying the cost of ben's jail cell too.

    looks like i'm on the hook either way here...

  122. CaliLawyer,

    That was exceptionally clear and articulate. Thank you very much. As my future practice may involve this line of work (what more fun could a guy have than to combat the IRS and the TBTF day-in and day-out? Isn't that what we're doing here, anyway?) -- it's always good to have concise and lucid explanations at one's fingertips. Filed away for later -- merci mille fois!


  123. @Ben:

    You sound like a very intelligent person. There is a compelling conclusion to your arguments.

    The problem is that the system is based on rules. The established rules, over time, have been created slowly, and have substantial inertia. If you were to go into court with your arguments, there are many different reasons why a court would reject your position.

    Sure, it is fun to make arguments like you have made. But without the power to enforce them, legally, it is dangerous from an incarceration standpoint to act too hard on some of what you say.

    For example, what if someone earns a paycheck. Can't that person claim that fiat dollars did not really result in any money being earned, so that therefore no tax is owed? If someone makes that argument, it will certainly result in jail time.

    Oh yeah, what about the argument that the IRS is illegal, the tax laws are illegal, etc. Okay, fine, for arguments' sake. But what if you don't pay your taxes? Your arguments will send you to a lonely prison cell.

    Unless the system changes at the top, like, for example, abolition of the Fed, or abandonment of FRN's in favor of gold-backed money, or a return to the limitations of our Constitution as the framers intended, then you are just making arguments.

    Keep up your good thoughts, but please, do be careful in how you implement those thoughts.

    When we return to a proper currency, I will be ready to rumble based on that new currency. Until then, I act within the system as best I can.

    That is sound advice.

  124. @CookieMonster

    Thanks for the great resource.


    Thanks for laying your take out for us.

    @Pailin @Joeka

    Thank you both for your wise words this morning. I reassessed my current situation and decided exit my position. I sold my calls and hedged my physical.

  125. @Cali Law re: Ben...

    Yup, thus my "Irwin Schiff of 2011" comment... "right" and "correct" can still get you a jail cell.

  126. ben. I suspect you have an axe to grind and the mortgage mess is a convenient vehicle. Seems to me many of these affiants would have no issue being robber barons or the EE if they just had more money/power.

    California Lawyer thanks for staying with the more moral part of the issue while recognizing law. I do understand how this whole thing has become unenforceable. I do understand the banks and associated institutions have made a royal mess of something that they ought to be experts in and have such a hugely vested interest in that it approaches breach of duty. Great translation to layman's terms of how the mortgages were butchered and then sent for rendering into unusable gloop. Thanks!

    The issue I have is exploiting this situation for personal profit.

    For it is exploitation to purposefully, willfully cause the ownership to be called into question when the only advantage is to profit from the mistake.

    I do not think the banks should be able to walk away from this without penalty however the penalty seems to be due/payable to shareholders and federal taxpayers.

    What harm has come to the homeowner/loan repayer from this mess? Is it prejudical to them that nobody can foreclose?

    I could see a class action suit from shareholders. From taxpayers. But really as I type this I am thinking it sounds silly to stand up in a courtroom and say

    "your honour, I insist that my bank be able to properly force me from my home and I seek your agreement to do all the things that would move them to foreclosure until such time as they can foreclose"

  127. California Lawyer said...
    The originating bank certainly has the right to receive payment, but since they sold the loan, what incentive do they have to do anything about it? Also, there was not just a single transaction from the bank to the trust. There were SEVERAL. So, at which point does the legal trail break down and the legal right to receive payment become severed? Who knows? Every single case is different, all 6 million of them!

    As far as I am concerned this is confirmation from one who makes his living practicing law, that the system is completely corrupted and irredeemable, albeit, on a different plane than that which I described, However, Cali lawyer has not confirmed, perhaps because he does not understand, that the bank has not lent you anything in consideration, since the money it gave you did not come from its deposits or balance sheet, but allowed them to add out of thin air the exact sum on the note you signed to their own balance sheet. Crazy but true, the banks do not lend you any money out of their treasury, nor out of that of the Fed. Along with fractional reserves, fiat money, and monetizing your signature, from this banks create unlimited wealth for themselves through interest payments, not interest on money they loan you but that they create out of nothing.

  128. Atlee. Welcome back :)

    Pulled the trigger a little too early on ZSL exit and now have only AGQ but also dry powder and can wait.

  129. Turd, as a "buy and hold physical" investor ( since Ag @ $7) I continue to buy the F-ing dip and consider myself lucky to have caught a bargain. My friends get the Vapors every time the metals get blowtorched by the EE, and can't understand the WHY. They can't get their heads around the motive of the EE to put the metals on sale. Could you speak to the MOTIVE in a posting at some later date? It might calm the nerves of some phys holders and point the herd toward greener pastures. Gracias.

  130. atlee,

    thanks for your comments

  131. HappyInTheWoods said...
    ben. I suspect you have an axe to grind and the mortgage mess is a convenient vehicle.

    You see how hard it is to fully grasp the evil and fraud of the fiat ponzi scheme. The axe I have to grind is with the fiat debt fractional reserve monetary system created out of thin air. Amazing, that even here in are very erudite little community, people still think that there is honest and integrity in our banking monetary system. I assure you there is not, until we return to honest money based on precious metals and competing forms of money. Absolutely everything that fiat money touches is corrupted, EVERYTHING !!!!!

  132. Thanks Turd. For all you do, this buds for you.

  133. atlee-
    so glad you're back.
    i agree but i see a lot of game changers this summer. starting w/ the greek parliament vote on wednesday.
    of course they will take the bailout. whether riots ensue or not is the question.

  134. ben. Please indicate with a quote where you found someone in this erudite community that thinks there is honesty and integrity in the banking monetary system. I'm interested in what that reads like. Interested in actual quotes only so I can read it word for word.

  135. Thanks Turd. Keeping my eye on silver and gold because no matter the daily or even weekly fluctuations, both are going higher.

  136. California Lawyer said...

    For example, what if someone earns a paycheck. Can't that person claim that fiat dollars did not really result in any money being earned, so that therefore no tax is owed? If someone makes that argument, it will certainly result in jail time.

    First we must have an honest monetary system and then a return to the common laws which went hand in hand with that honest system.

    Then people must be educated with respect to their rights in a common law system, instead of the commercial UCC admiralty/maritime legal system that nullifies, undermines, and replaces the constitutional common law system in most courtrooms in this country.

    Then we must have judges, who now are mostly and entirely corrupted by the above, who will not legislate from the bench and honor, support, and uphold their oath to defend the constitution and the common law from which it is derived.

    Most attorneys will become judges themselves and few dare to challenge the corrupt system, lest they be ostracized by the judicial tyrants who profit greatly from this massive corruption themselves. But, our judicial as well as monetary system is totally bankrupt, corrupt, and does not any longer serve the people, but has become the vehicle through which corporate power robs and enslaves the people.

  137. HappyInTheWoods said...Please indicate with a quote where you found someone in this erudite community that thinks there is honesty and integrity in the banking monetary system.

    Your arguments questioning my premise seemingly on moral grounds appears to me to imply that there is some shred of honesty and integrity in the system, and that on moral grounds you would not default on payments to the criminal bankers therefore. If I borrowed money from the mafia at 30% interest, legally and morally am I required to pay that back? That is the question to which all of this boils down. I await your reply. Thank you, this is great fun and a joy to debate.

  138. @Ben:

    I do totally understand that FRN's are created out of thin air. Debt = money. Why do you think I am on this blog?

    My opinion about the system:

    The system is not fair, the Fed is corrupt, and must be abolished. We must return to a sound money system, such as gold or silver backed money.

    However, I am a realist. I am trying to survive. I work within the system, to try to do the best I can.

    I swore an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, both as a soldier, and now as an attorney. If I advocate an illegal, untenable position, I will be disbarred. What good does that do me or my clients? If I advocate change of the system, based on a return to Constitutional principles, then is that not a far better way to bring about real, lasting change?

    Revolution and anarchy are not the solution. Nor is civil disobedience.

    Look up Michael Pines. He did exactly what you said to do. Good for him and his personal, mental determination. He is a fighter, no doubt, but, is he effective? He is now in serious hot water, he has lost his law license, and will do jail time. At what point does he consider that a victory? Does the client he could not represent consider it a victory?

    You are intelligent, so think, and be careful.

  139. @Ben:

    One more thing. If I could do my transactions in gold or silver, I would in a heartbeat. But, right now, that is just not feasible. Maybe it will be one day. I do believe change is coming, on the express train, for sure.

    I am just not going to be one of those Cindy Sheehan types, protesting for the sake of protesting. I am instead that guy who listens alot, but does not say much, until the time is right. So, I prepare.

  140. ben.roberts.

    Please do not confuse me holding myself to integrity with me believing everyone else is acting with integrity.

    And frankly I don't always hit my own standard either.

    The concern I have with the position you take is that you will attract opportunists and sheeple. Followers lacking conviction, knowledge, possibly questionable motives and the ability to affect lasting positive change. Worse yet they could become unwilling and unknowing martyrs to a cause they don't truly understand.

  141. Atlee - this place is better with you here. Never mind the #7's. Life is too short as is.

    So, what ETF or other short vehicle might you suggest for a non-trader here?

  142. The bankster, the corporations, the judicial system, the politicians have all conspired to rob this countries inhabitants over the last century of it's hard earned wealth. The amount involved in this crime is in the hundreds of trillions of lost fortune. The worst part of this rotten to the core system, is that not only do the people become impoverished they also become the worst form of debt slaves. Yet even more worst than that, they do not even realize the extent to which they have been enslaved as their minds have been programmed to not only accept the slavery, but to enjoy it.

    As a consequence, we are entering the most dangerous part of the implementation of this fascist police state with the rise of the TSA branching out into bus stations, train stations, and even highway check points. All of this is interrelated, planned and integrated by design. They are turning this country into one giant prison for these debt slaves who are starting to wake up. So, this goes way beyond the corrupt debt based monetary system, it touches everything in your life, as I have stated earlier.


    gold charts

  144. ben. Mafia and 30% interest.

    Extreme but yes if you take it without duress then you owe it.

    But you can't use this extreme example until you admit you are part of the mafia yourself. Weilding fiat everywhere you go. Perpetuating that corruption with your own wallet and spreading the devils' seed with your very own fingers. Oh yes you have no right to the high road in the fashion you travel.

  145. hey, ben. I'm done giving you the soapbox now.

  146. California Lawyer I am honored that you are a part of this forum. I have the highest regard for your honesty and integrity. I am fully aware of the difficulty in maintaining rationality and sanity in the system you did not create. I admire your willingness to be challenged and debate honestly the issues I raise. Please, do not take my comments with respect to lawyers and judges in general to include you. We need more honest people like you who are deeply concerned for this country and would love to change it if they could. Your doing your best for your clients, under these corrupt circumstances, is all you can do. Where you have the power to effect change, do so, where you cannot, do the best you can. What more can we expect of you. Thank you for being a part of our forum, you ad to it immensely.

  147. HappyInTheWoods thank you, it's been a real pleasure to discuss with you these issues. I hope that you learned from me as much as I learned from you. After all, is that not why we are all here?

  148. Does anyone here follow Eric De Groot? (and understand him?)

  149. @Ben:

    I too thank you for the engaging debate. I hold your comments and insights with great respect as well. It is a pleasure to be able to read and engage in debates with smart, critical thinkers, like yourself and most of the others on this blog. I truly enjoy the process, and learn a great deal from this place.

    I just hope that my comments add to the discussion, and do not detract from it.

    Thank you.

  150. ben,I would love to live like Rocky Racoon,but how do you purchase your food,gas,medical,etc? Serious question.

  151. My only purpose here is to make as many people aware of the magnitude of the evil we face. Daily we are concerned with the crimes of the EE on our silver and gold investments and savings, but it extends way beyond that. If we are to prepare adequately, then we must have no illusion and be not deceived by the enemy in any way. The only way to protect and prepare yourself is to know the truth. It is only the truth that can and will set you free. Knowing the truth is the only way to understand what is needed to prepare sufficiently and to survive the coming very difficult times we all face. I have enjoyed immensely this exchange of ideas with all of you. Thank you and good luck !

  152. Anyone still alive in the latest silver hitting$40 contest? I think there are two picks for June21 and one for August.

  153. Cali lawyer,

    As I understood MBS, the notes were sold/assigned to the trusts and individual notes were pooled so that an MBS consisted of Five separate notes, for example. Are you saying that individual notes were divided so that an MBS might contain a fraction of a single note?

  154. steve said...
    ben,I would love to live like Rocky Racoon,but how do you purchase your food,gas,medical,etc? Serious question.

    Steve this corrupt system imposes upon all of us the necessity to use its essential services in some fashion. You are not participating in the evil of fiat money if you use it. The same can be said of banking and other institutions they own and control. This system is so pervasive that you have no choice if you are to survive. What we are responsible for, is to understand it completely so that we might little by little extricate ourselves from it as best we can. With a little creativity and maneuvering you can become fairly independent. Gold and silver are your first step to remove your wealth away from the confiscators. First understand your enemy, then do what you can, the best you can to avoid his evil and destructive ways.

  155. @Klaverius:

    Individual loans were pooled into a single security. I am not aware of any single loan itself being diced and sliced.

    However, there have been documented cases where a single loan ended up in multiple pools.

    See, just like the fraudulent fractional reserve banking!

    Bankers had one note, then sold it to several different trusts. Now, when it comes time to foreclose, there are multiple claimants as to the single house!

    Is this crazy or what?

  156. I'm just veeery curious at the open interest and commercial net short position numbers right now.

  157. Just a ramble here about this golden summer, those silver moons, sailing and hurricanes:

    Impossible to know the timing, size and scope of the EE manipulation and their “system of things” in this world. It's also impossible to know when a Black Swan might appear. The Bernank will not announce QE3. It will happen. Of this we can be assured. But it won't be announced and it won't be called QE and it may very well be hidden from view, only be seen in market anomalies after the fact.

    Somehow I just have the gut feeling that this summer will be like sailing, range bound, tacking to and fro in choppy waters with weeks and weeks of complete boredom, until we are lulled into an almost slumber by the roll, pitch and yaw of the metals markets.

    Then, without any specific timing or warning, our resting on the tiller will be violently interrupted by sudden hurricane force winds and. In a sheer panic, we find ourselves riding up the face of a giant 10-story wave when the Dark Swan crashes onto the scene.

    Maybe multiple Swans all at once. Perfect storm stuff. Mortgage debacle explodes, TBTF failures, natural disasters, MENA explodes, nuclear event, OPEC, COMEX, DOW, Treasuries, Iran, Israel, Japan, Russia, China, North Korea… Washington.

    My thinking is, as bad as it will be, however horrible it is, no matter what the tipping point will be and however much we pray against it for the sake of all that is good and right… it will be very good to have gold and silver. IMO, good mining shares will also move fast when the time comes and the algos are set to take advantage of the shakeout there.
    Those that make it over the top of the massive waves will be very glad they held and were in the right boat.

    Those in the fiat barges will crash on the rocks. The innocent that are unaware of any of this will be broadsided while they sleep and lost at sea, drowned in a sea of debt. This is very sad and unfortunate.

    Before I beat this analogy all the way down to Davy Jones’ locker, remember to have a life raft close by, keep Turd’s weather radio on and always keep your bow pointed into the wind.

  158. WOW LARRY, THAT WAS AWESOME !! I am left nearly speechless. Way to go. Give us more of that. Very impressive. Thank you !!!

  159. Ben 10-4 Thank You,have been buying silver just haven't figured out the best way to get off grid just yet,but it is my constant thought. Steve.

  160. Steve more important than being off the grid is location. I hope you are in a good one when the SHTF. Its really about independence rather than being completely off the grid,, very expensive and require lots of thought and planning regardless either way. Good Luck !!

  161. You are not morally responsible for the system you were born into, only to make sure you are not a slave to it permanently. Free yourself from the Matrix !!

  162. Just in from the coin store. Spot was 34.75. Got mostly 90% but a few nice englehard/JM bars, Libertads and my first Britannia. It's in a nice capsule and a 1999. Just looked it up on Apmex and they sell it for $144. I feel kinda bad my coin guy only charged me $38.75. Same price for the Libertads.

    He also had about 10 older Kooks but I had reached my predetermined limit on this trip. I don't know if I should go back and clean him out on the Kooks or give him a little extra for selling the Britannia so low. I think some of those Kooks carry a big premium. And he has a 1991 Panda. That's gotta have a nice premium. Does a 1999 Britannia really go for $144? What would you do?

  163. That is what was confusing me. I know it is a mess, but I thought it was manageable. The issue is the mortgage and that the note and mortgage were not transferred together (nor recorded). The note is still a valid liability no matter where it goes, it is just unsecured without the mortgage. There is no foreclosure without the mortgage. The note holder can still get a judgment and collect on that judgment. It can put a lien on the house, although that does not help if the property is homesteaded.

    There are a variety of options available, it just comes down to a collection matter. And if the note holder can acquire the mortgage, then it can foreclose. On the other hand, if an individual note was partitioned and put into 15 different MBS, that is a very different animal.

    I heard denninger say before that the the some REIT had transfer problems and that the notes were not properly conveyed to the trust when established. That some REIT had No assets, in fact. Don't know if that s true or not. I always viewed this as a problem for the investors, ie some trust have no assets and the trusts cannot foreclose because they don't have the mortgages. I suppose originators and underwriters may have been compact to fraud.

    So, I suppose all that is a long winded way to ask whether you think this is manageable?

  164. ben,like the Franklin have a few from my dad,a man so busy that he didn't have time to be Pres. Anyway,if you don't mind me asking,when did you start your process? PS if you like history have you read Thomas Jefferson's view on this banking cluster#^ck he was spot on. Best.

  165. From Jesse:
    "But I have to note that those who are quite often wrong because of a fundamental lack of economic and market knowledge are becoming increasingly noisy and emboldened (against metals) lately, trotting out old tired arguments and worn predictions, and this is sometimes a sign that the tide is turning."

  166. Anonymous.....

    IMF just the beginning?

  167. @NCOT:

    From previous thread...

    Where did you get that price point 34.80 as a good short entry? To me that sounds wrong. You should be shorting at rallies to 36 not lodging yourself at some no-mans land space.

    Below that, a short position becomes available at a break below 34.30, a psychological support area on a nine month old trend line. Break of that opens up retest of May massacre lows.

    Again, just my humble opinion.

  168. I just read Turd's update again. Did I miss something but why did he need to apologize for silver not hitting $42?

    I don't get that...

  169. JoeKa - my interpretation is that's to keep any newbie's from piling on and head off the trolls.

    Would be good to know if he got out of his own positions yet. "That pick is going to end up costing the Turd a lot of money".

  170. @ Larry

    you're describing a big time double top coming. Sounds like a basing period, then the explosion. Something to think about and wait for.

  171. Just got here... NCOT please tell me your not still ...

    Hi JoeKa, Yeah buddy what you said about that aug 23 til now line.
    That's like the primary target of 'the evil hand behind the curtain' and
    friends if down is the goal - like we should expect a rmeeting of turds #2 + 200DSMA + Spot Paper Silver as a strong possibility???

    w/v raidlyz

    yes lets hope so - all night and all week!

  172. There could be every possibility of a rally up today possibly to 36...but unfortunately it's only providing an opportunity for more load-up on the short side of the trade.

  173. Prize Fighter

    he bought them much cheaper so do not fret about his sale price. I would go back and buy him out. I would buy every one of them. ASAP

  174. Hey Joe - I made some on the silver short but decided to stop it at 35. I think if it hits 36 I will short again, but where to buy - I think if it drops to 32-33 and shows support that may be the point. However I have to make myself not jump and wait for support instead...

    Gold I am worried about now. Same with Oil.

  175. JoeKa - say it ain't so!

    You mean silver needs to base and firm up and prove to everybody it's safe to play again? Maybe chew through some stacks owned by people that just want their money back after being under water for awhile? Then maybe it gets to put the $3X.XX in the rear view mirror and Maybe even see 50's???

    Bcuz THAT's what I want to hear somebody sayin' bad!!!
    But wanting it to happen and having it make real sense are two different things - and I'm amateur at best and often much worse than at trying to understand TA

  176. Oh - I found out you can only e-trade the mini SPX and Dow. The full contracts are pit trade only.

  177. I think we got lots of silver to buy back from people in pain before we get to the path of least resistance is up situation again... what I meant to say

  178. ben.roberts13 said...
    You are not morally responsible for the system you were born into, only to make sure you are not a slave to it permanently. Free yourself from the Matrix !!

    The world is the slavery. When one becomes spiritual then the world disappears and one is free.

  179. steve said... Anyway,if you don't mind me asking,when did you start your process? PS if you like history have you read Thomas Jefferson's view on this banking cluster#^ck he was spot on. Best.

    Fortunately I was fully aware of where the PM's were going to go because I was fortunate enough to study Austrian Economics under Alan Greenspan, when he was a good guy giving lectures on economics at the Nathaniel Brandon Institute, in the late sixties. That was back when Ayn Rand was his mentor. I began buying gold and silver that far back as a result. Over the years, however, I sold most of my holdings and began anew when I got into computers around the year 2000. I had begun to read articles on the net from some of the old time great Austrian economist. The lights came on and I became a full blown gold and silver bug and started buying like crazy. I stopped buying in the summer of 2006 when silver was around $10.00 per oz and have been holding ever since. I don't need to speculate or day trade to catch up, because I don't need to tell you how gold and silver has done in the last ten years. Sorry for the long explanation, but this is lots of fun for me.

    Yes, I am fully aware of Thomas Jefferson's writings on banking, finance, and money. I totally agree of course. Thomas is the godfather of liberty and the constitution and I admire him the most of all American presidents. I have been preparing for what is on our doorstep now for about ten years. I consider myself extremely fortunate for the knowledge and wisdom I have garnered over the years and enjoy great peace and security at this point. But, the most important asset is the truth I have discovered as this has been my life's goal from many years back. The truth does indeed set you free in more ways than you can count. Best of luck to you Steve. Thank you !

  180. Jackson was the best president of them all.


  181. Turd, no need to apologize to us or to take this on your shoulders. What we appreciate and continue to need from you is your best assessment of where should be going. We can then make our own adjustments to account for EE manipulation. Nobody can predict metals prices with 100% accuracy in a manipulated world. About the only thing we can realistically do is adjust our trading strategies to account for it.

    Thanks for everything you do for us!

  182. ABSOLUTELY SOCKEYE,that is an integral part of the discovery of truth !!

  183. Oh yes good ole Andrew Jackson and his "by god I will rout you out, you den if vipers". hahaha, well he is a close second in my book, John Kennedy gave his life in his war on fiat money. So he is up there in the top three also.

  184. Brent > $21.50 to WTI - Arbitrage opportunity folks! Either WTI is going up or Brent is coming down. Good chance Saudi Arabia gets invaded or switches to Russian and Chinese overlords or has their citizens finally rise up to throw of their US army propped up bastard hated Royal Family this summer.

    Martin Armstrong said 13-14th good sign would be bottom, so time to acquire physical is today. Good chance this is the bottom. Turk, Sinclair and Embry all agree that summer doldrums will not play out this year. Have been buying Sept & Dec contracts lately as a result.

  185. First time I've read that Bill Gross is buying gold and silver. When the world's biggest bond manager is buying precious metals, you know we're on the right side of the trade. MARAdona and the rest of the EE can suck my big ____. Keep the faith, folks. The truth will win out

    Both Jim Rogers, the legendary Investor, and Mr. Gross, Head of Pimco, the world's largest Bond Fund, have both expressed their intentions to continue to purchase gold and silver but are wanting to wait to see how low the precious metals go between now and August before committing large sums to their purchases.

  186. Morning all.

    @JoeKa you should know by now. No TA involved in my price points!
    Got beaten down on the beatdown yesterday and just flipped the position.

    Took some off the table at 34.60. Opened another small one at 35.10 to get that average. But I was keeping 35 in mind that below that and 39-41 ain't happening so get in for the drfit to 33/34
    Mind you. 35 seems to have been holding and no dip on the Indian open

    I also predicted that me shorting will cause a rise in price!

  187. Just listened to Krugman and other 'esteemed' economists hash it our on Charlie Rose on NPR. Didn't really know whether to laugh, cry or pull over and throw up. Main points that made it through the descending red haze of my selective perception:
    - QE3 is a lock
    - the rest of the world are whining assholes to complain about USD devaluation
    - structural reform of taxes / entitlements / critical infrastructure / productive economy would be nice, but right now WE NEED TO BOOST CONSUMER SPENDING/DEMAND
    - Fed should really target 4% inflation
    - new, even bigger stimulus program is needed
    - commodity price highs are 'transitory'
    - WPA should be reinstated
    I put off buying more physical due to other things I needed to do today, but getting at least a few rolls of Morgans tomorrow.

  188. sockeye1, thanks. That's the kind of blunt wisdom I needed to hear. It's a small store but the guy is so much nicer than the big goomba down the street. I bet he'll sell me all those Kooks for spot+$4. I don't know what I was thinking when I didn't get them today. Actually, I do. My OCD and nice round numbers. Actually bought $100.40 in fv because one bag at home was .40 short. Serenity now!

    Will continue buying physical about once a week thru August. Never was much of a junk silver guy, but after a couple bags I gotta tell's pretty cool having a pile of it. 90% silver sounds a bit different than the change in my ashtray.

    Some really great posts and insight here today as usual. I have some reading to do.

    Looking forward to the new site. Such a chore to have leap-frog conversations but look who I'm telling.

    Turd, Turd, Turd is the word. Now everybody knows about the Turd.

    Goodnight Gracie....

  189. @ncot -
    silver not flying w/ gold, but check out the s&p moving up. japan's easy credit + china inflation + dollar taking a breather will lend a few days up to the risk trades.

  190. can someone send me the link to where armstrong actually says this is "the bottom" of the gold/silver prices for this period?
    no way this is the bottom for certain risk trade metals, as they have been pretty much in lockstep w/ the manufactured dow jones. and there's no way yesterday was the bottom of the djia.

  191. CookieMonster said...

    can someone send me the link to where armstrong actually says this is "the bottom" of the gold/silver prices for this period?

    Armstrong doesn't talk prices per se but timing cycles.

    This site isn't his but maintains Armstrong's essays in PDF form.

    The latest essay listed, "Is The End Near?", contains the June 13th/14th date. Mentioned at the end of page 3, 8 and 9. I want to say I've seen him write more on it elsewhere but can't find it.

    Here's that PDF...

  192. Indians now giving a nice little pop to metals. Let's see how long this lasts until the London boys take over. Still short, did not take profit. May need to cover if there is a strong buy impetus.